The Milligan experiment was an experiment on obidience to authoritive figures. It's worth checking out, for In my opinion the experiment showed how even before the conscience is desenthitized, people will go to any length to gain approval from their authoritive figure. This clarified to me why many become ministerial sevants, elders and company men, giving their life to an organisation they proudly refer to as mother.
The Rebel
JoinedPosts by The Rebel
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The Milgram experiment.
by The Rebel inthe milligan experiment was an experiment on obidience to authoritive figures.
it's worth checking out, for in my opinion the experiment showed how even before the conscience is desenthitized, people will go to any length to gain approval from their authoritive figure.
this clarified to me why many become ministerial sevants, elders and company men, giving their life to an organisation they proudly refer to as mother..
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Re-read Animal Farm.
by The Rebel ini was one of many witness children, who studied this book in english literature class.. having re-read it as an adult it addressed so many issues i have with the organisation.
including maniputive control, the re-writing of history etc etc.
so many of the characters in the book, resembled characters i have known in the organisation.. boxer- loyalty without questioning.. squeler- a character who doesn't care about truth, and uses rhetoric of language to twist truth.. clover-who silently questions decisions, but stays loyal.. if your young, or old i would suggest reading this small book, by george orwell.
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The Rebel
I was one of many witness children, who studied this book in English Literature class.
Having re-read it as an adult it addressed so many issues I have with the organisation. Including maniputive control, the re-writing of history etc etc. So many of the characters in the book, resembled characters I have known in the organisation.
Boxer- loyalty without questioning.
Squeler- A character who doesn't care about truth, and uses rhetoric of language to twist truth.
Clover-Who silently questions decisions, but stays loyal.
If your young, or old I would suggest reading this small book, by George Orwell. It will in a wonderful way open your mind to how the organisation works, and the types of people that allow the organisation to function.
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Good Morning!
by snowbird ingood morning, all.. it is good to be here.. thanks to all for your contributions.. love and blessings.
sylvia.
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I have a big nose...
by The Rebel insurprisingly whilst hating being born with this over large nose, women have fallen in love with my nose.
so with regards to look and charm, what i hated about my physical attributes, many women have found attractive.
anyway i just wanted to say what we find unattractive about ourselfs, doesn't necessarily mean others do.
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The Rebel
Why I started this O.P, is that most of us feel we are unlovable, ugly, due to how we see ourselfs in the mirror. This has lead me to me have a pathetic personally trait, and is why most of my female friends are attractive in appearance. But the important attribute should be a persons heart... if i can't see that, I am ugly, ugly...and sadly I am very ugly, I am trying to correct this failing.
Having left the witness organisation, and thinking I am so enlightened, I realize as person I am still a rather pathetic and superficial person. So I am now trying to establish a rapport with all the wonderful people I meet, and not only interact with people that I find attractive.
This is my 1489 post, so I would also like everyone to know, I am still learning about being a man...I am still not any further forward from cult thinking than I thought I was. Leaving a cult is just another " reality" of life to accept.
How my wife has put up with me for 20 years, and how my 12,year old boy is my best friend shows i don't need to be the perfect husband, nor the perfect father ...i just need to be my imperfect self. So having a " big nose" and being insecure doesn't mean I am disadvantaged. And even if my wife left me and my child stopped loving me it isn't down to the size of my nose.
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The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion"
by The Rebel inwhen growing up in a "proper" j.ws household:-.
a) our moral opinions are conditioned by this environment and upbringing.. b) to hold to jws belief and moral opinions gives our life purpose.. c) what we believe we hold it to be true.. d) in terms of approval it can be difficult for the mind to accept logical evidence if our life is based on "truth" and " moral opinions" that conflict with our conscience.. anyway i am not sure where i am going with this o.p?.
i guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with jws has proven more challenging than i realized.
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The Rebel
I find it very sad that a parent can say to a son/ daughter who is disfellowshipped:-
" look how much we sacrificed for you, when you were young, now you have forced us to shun you"
In my opinion a parent should always say :-
" You did what you feel right. We do and will always love you. We can not shun you"
However if a son/daughter is shunned by parents, they may find it hard to honestly say to a parent " You have done what you feel right, shun me, but I will always love you"
So too clarify my O.P. I am trying:-
A) To understand the factors that make people believe things.
B) To understand how a belief system can influence people to do things I think immoral.
And most importantly, self examination:-
C) In what circumstances am i still capable of living with " false" knowledge that will cloud my " moral attitude?
And my conclusion is we are all challenged in life. We will all believe " false" knowledge and we all do things " immoral" even to our own standards.
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The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion"
by The Rebel inwhen growing up in a "proper" j.ws household:-.
a) our moral opinions are conditioned by this environment and upbringing.. b) to hold to jws belief and moral opinions gives our life purpose.. c) what we believe we hold it to be true.. d) in terms of approval it can be difficult for the mind to accept logical evidence if our life is based on "truth" and " moral opinions" that conflict with our conscience.. anyway i am not sure where i am going with this o.p?.
i guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with jws has proven more challenging than i realized.
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The Rebel
Hi Smiddy,
Smiddy :- "did I understand correctly your O.P?
The Rebel. I don't think you did?
My point is JWs morals are often based on what they believe is correct. Therefore their attitude and feelings to life are dictated by this belief. What they believe as good I believe to be bad. This is because I now have a totally different moral compass to when I was a witness. But trying to reason my moral disagreement with a witness is often futile, because we believe a different truth and therefore have different morals.
However my O.P was to :-
A) highlight that whilst I judge JWs as having a low moral standard, I can also sympathize how the indoctrination process has clouded their judgement.
B) When I trying reasoning with people and to change what I perceive as incorrect " truth" and " morals" I can understand why I am met with limited success. Culture, religion and various other factors can cloud a persons thinking.
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The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion"
by The Rebel inwhen growing up in a "proper" j.ws household:-.
a) our moral opinions are conditioned by this environment and upbringing.. b) to hold to jws belief and moral opinions gives our life purpose.. c) what we believe we hold it to be true.. d) in terms of approval it can be difficult for the mind to accept logical evidence if our life is based on "truth" and " moral opinions" that conflict with our conscience.. anyway i am not sure where i am going with this o.p?.
i guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with jws has proven more challenging than i realized.
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The Rebel
When growing up in a "proper" J.ws household:-
A) Our moral opinions are conditioned by this environment and upbringing.
B) To hold to Jws belief and moral opinions gives our life purpose.
C) What we believe we hold it to be true.
D) In terms of approval it can be difficult for the mind to accept logical evidence if our life is based on "truth" and " moral opinions" that conflict with our conscience.
Anyway I am not sure where I am going with this O.P?
I guess my point is that settling factual and logical disputes with Jws has proven more challenging than I realized. In order to explain this I illustrated my point with those born in . But the same argument can be used on any convert of a belief or moral system.
This brings me back to my O.P " The challenge of " truth" and " moral opinion" and by so doing I hope it leads to greater understanding of why debating with some posters can be futile.
My conclusion is it is not always that a poster is deliberately argumentative, when they fail to offer convincing reasons to justify a belief or moral opinion. The trick is to know when we are not going to convince someone on the validity of our argument.
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I have a big nose...
by The Rebel insurprisingly whilst hating being born with this over large nose, women have fallen in love with my nose.
so with regards to look and charm, what i hated about my physical attributes, many women have found attractive.
anyway i just wanted to say what we find unattractive about ourselfs, doesn't necessarily mean others do.
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The Rebel
surprisingly whilst hating being born with this over large nose, women have fallen in love with my nose. So with regards to look and charm, what I hated about my physical attributes, many women have found attractive.
Anyway i just wanted to say what we find unattractive about ourselfs, doesn't necessarily mean others do. In fact it could be our main asset.
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Are their " wishy, washy" congregations...
by The Rebel init may be an amazing thought for many but i am sure " wishy, washy" congregations exist.
i am referring to congregations where the elders are idle in enforcing the g.bs guidelines on control.. i mean let's face it the organisation is an authoritarian regime, that works only if the elders enforce complete obedience to watchtower policies.
sadly in the congregations i was associated with the elders excelled at enforcing loyalty and obedience.. however with age, people mellow, elders can become more compassionate, even assume the voice of reason?
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The Rebel
Thanks for the replies.
UnshackledTheChains:- that was an informative post, sadly " wishy washy" congregations can " shackle and chain" outsiders to a " powerful controlling publishing corporation"
Actually that's the way most " interested one's" become part of a controlling publishing corporation. The other way is sadly those " men" who see the hate in the organisation, the position of power they can obtain, and they quickly become " company men" ministerial servants quickly promoted to elders. Sheep in wolves clothing.
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Do you air on the side of caution?
by compound complex inwell, that would be an airer.
it's all in how we hear the spoken word.
when a little boy, one fellow thought "world peace" was "whirled peas.
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The Rebel
As a child I invented the word " syritherous" This was a magical word and I used it on many occasions.
Headmaster " You are on the verge of a caning"
The Rebel :-" It was very " syritherous" of me and I am sorry"
Headmaster " Well don't let me see you in my office again"
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An elder trying to help me be more humble, assigned me with helping with toilet duties.
The rebel:- " My doctor has said I have a " syritherous" phobia to disinfection materials"
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I think we should all have a word in our vocabulary that doesn't exist. It rarely enters some bodies mind to ask what " syritherous" means.